This is something that has been on my mind about the BAP program.

The specialist:

My example, I would consider Jack Taylor as a Master Breeder (not accounting his breeding of other things in the past) because of his ability to breed and selectable breed discus. However, in the BAP, it does not award the specialist. Or did I miss something.



Opinions?

I'm not a BAP Member, but I agree with you Otto...
Mike

There's a big difference between breeding 6 of something and 5000 of something. I would definitely agree.

There is a special award .
This is part of the OK. BAP rules.
Walter
The criteria for each title are as follows:
1.Advanced Breeder in the Class. The member must have: a. bred a total of two times the number of species required for Class completion, and b. written an article for OKAA publication or presented a program for OKAA about breeding or keeping a species from the Class.

2.Specialist Breeder in the Class. The member must have: a. previously attained Advanced Breeder in the Class, and b. bred a total of three times the number of species required for Class completion, and c. written another article for the OKAA publication or presented a program for OKAA about a topic related to the Class, and d. completed at least two of the following: (1) bred a species, from the Class, that has not been bred by any OKAA member within the past three years, (2) written an article for OKAA publication, related to any aspect of the Class, that reviews published literature (3) shown and placed (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) in at least three different shows with species from the Class, or (4) bred a total of six times the number of species required for Class completion.

3.Expert Breeder in the Class. The member must have: a. previously attained Specialist Breeder in the Class, and b. bred a total of four times the number of species normally required for the Class, and c. written an article for the OKAA publication or presented a program for OKAA about a topic related to the Class, and d. completed a least three of the following: (1) written an article, related to the Class, which is published by a national journal or magazine (2) presented a program, related to the Class, at an aquarium club other than OKAA (3) served as a judge for species from this Class at a show other than OKAA (4) shown and placed first with species from the Class in at least three different fish shows. (5) served as an Officer, Board Member, or Editor for a specialty club. (6) bred a total of ten times the number of species normally required for the Class. (7) bred two species from this Class that have not been previously bred by OKAA members, or (8) bred one species from this Class that has not been previously bred in FAAS-Federation of American Aquarium Societies.

t still requires you to breed a number of species in the class.

What I trying to argue for, is the specialist.

In the extreme, lets say there is a guy who picks one species, and I don't care what species it is. Through his breeding, the scientific knowledge of that species is expanded or the diversity of the color morphs is enhanced, or the genetics of the species is explored. That is to say, he specializes in the extreme to the benefit of this one species and its breeding.

Now I am not sure we have anyone in this extreme, but we do have members who have become known for their ability to breed a single species.

They will according to the BAP, never be a master, advanced, or a specialist breeder.

I think some way of recognizing this should be in the BAP.

The BAP is geared to rewarding the generalist. There is a lot of work in learning how and breeding different species, but, I have heard more than once, "I want to get a fish to breed to finish this category and then I am going to get rid of it".

BAP rewards quantity of species but has no reward for quality of species. Not only should the program reward diversity, but should also reward quality of specialization.

I have no idea how that could ever be implimented, but, that is why I opened up the can of worms.

I am not a good example of a specialist breeder. I am more a mass breeder. However, I have seen enough articles on the The Angelfish Society site of people who devoted themselves to the single species and its enhancement. These people would be Master Specialist Breeders. However, in the BAP programs, they are not recognized.

IHMO

I enjoy the concept that Otto is talking about but like him not sure how to implement such a thing. Otto is sort of an angel guru, I am kind of a cory/catfish breeder extrodinaire and there are others that have raised a lot of a single fish species. In Jack Taylor's instance he is commercial so it could just be a special commercial breeder award category. Just more food for thought. He is not just a basement hobbyist these days.

Jack

The club could give out something like that if it was deemed earned. I doubt there would be too many of them. Say, "Discus Expert" or some such title.

It doesn't even have to be part of the BAP. If a person is interested in the BAP, they will work towards that goal. However, if someone is a specialist in a specific species, that can be recognized by the club.

As you mentioned, people say they are going to spawn a certain fish and get rid of it after they have the points. That can be bad, but it can be good. For instance, you might get something to BAP and find out you really like that fish.

When I started I only wanted to do angels. Now that I have grown up a bit, I realize they take way too much grow-out space and I am not willing to dedicate that many gallons to only angels. But . . . I just love those shellies! I had no interest in julies or kribs, but I got some to spawn for BAP. They are growing on me a bit . So, I may or may not get rid of them after BAP, but I have had some experience with them and if I do decide to get rid of them, it may be that I don't particularly like them or it may be that I want to try something else.

I agree with you, Otto, but I have a bit of a different outlook on this. I thought when I looked at this title that it was about microworms!

Let's debate! Bring on the opinions!

I am going to make a few points. Good and Bad.

1.) Jack has not yet submitted any forms to participate in the BAP. I have the utmost respect for him as a breeder and discus expert. But I don't think it is necessary to worry about providing awards for him if he is not really interested in the program. Granted, he may not be participating due to the smaller amount of species he is targeting.
2.) We have some specialist awards from our old program that I intend to carry forward from our old program that are a little different than the OKAA program. We had an award based on varieties of certain fish. For example, we had guppy specialist, angelfish specialist and a zebra specialist. So, after you bred a certain number of varieties, you could obtain a certificate. When we publish our new BAP rules that we will present at the Februray meeting, I will make sure that is still part of the program. Anyone can suggest a category and we can add it as an award. I had suggested a cory specialist hoping that I could acheive that Anything is really fair game. Shrimp, natives, peacocks, tangs, tank busters and discus. I think the criteria was 5 varieties.

So, these ideas are really good and we have taken steps to move forward already. Keep the ideas coming and keep the momentum on forms coming too. I have more forms in the past few months than I have in the past 10 years! And yes some awards will be available at the next meeting.

To quote the movie "Big Chill", "Just trying to keep the conversation lively". Nice to hear all the point of views. I hope we get a lot of ideas on this and a few more controvsal subjects in other threads.

The more input we have the better we can tailor our BAP to our club.
Walter

Otto, I hope I didn't come off as too direct. I know you were using Jack as an example. I am sure I came off a little snippy. Bottom line is we do have a way to reward folks that want to specialize and we can address that opportunity.

I don't want to hijack this thread. but I would be interested in knowing how everyone would like to be recognized. OKAA uses plaques for each class. We could do certificates and Patty has thrown out some fun ideas. I was leaning towards certificates for now, but if people think that something a little fancier is appropriate, that would be fine.

I don't know your rules but it sounds a little complex. I just want to put this out there, years ago MASI did a special award if you breed 5 diffent fish but the same genus,
ex: aulonocara jacob,flav,lawanda,masoni,maylandi

you breed five different kinds. you are rewarded at the show.

just giving you an idea.

I don't think Masi does this anymore, but there BAP program is cut and dry.

but I do think people in to award for stuff like that. I wish Masi did the same thing, I also wish they had a forum, I wish I could move to KC because it seems to be more of a cichlid place.

I think personally the BAP itself is fine as is. As was mentioned before the club could recognize specialties outside the BAP, or add them to the BAP and it shouldn't affect the "value" of breeding fish in this manner either way. If someone reaches the above mentioned qualifications for breeding a specific fish or group of fish that many times, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume it's because they LIKE those fish, and not because they like the specialist "title"

in this case, my $.02 isn't even worth that since I don't have ANY points in the BAP lol I'm still trying to find the way to get negative points so I can really try to be the LOWEST scoring member on the board.

I agree. That's what I really enjoy about going to other club's auctions. Generally, there is a different theme of fish types. So, if you like to expand beyond what local stores and local hobbyists keep, it's a great way to diversify. I am really hoping to go to the St. Louis auction this weekend. 50/50 chance at the moment.

jargonchipmunk wrote:


Plant specialist.

Walter